What the RPV doesn't understand about racism

"Are Virginia Republicans really unable to understand that?" (0.00 / 0)

On that issue, I strongly recommend that everyone read my interview with Pastor Joe Flores of Virginia Beach. According to Flores, there's  "no doubt" that this racist mindset is out there, the only question is whether it's "seeping into Republican politics, institutionalizing itself into the system."  According to Flores, Republicans "play like they're not racist, they've learned to react with shock and dismay when the subject comes up."  Flores adds that Republicans "play the "game," namely the "I don't get it" game. Except that, Pastor Flores believes, they may really not "get it," given how "heavily indoctrinated" they are in their ideology, "philosophical dogma," etc. According to Flores, they simply "are not able to think from another person's perspective...they just don't get it."

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 16:34:25 PM UTC

This post should be taken down immediately and an apology issued to Mr. Schoeneman. (2.00 / 1)

And I'm not even close to joking.

Let's start with the facts. There is absolutely zero evidence that racist, or racist jokes or emails, are being used to rally Republicans. There is only evidence that a then-sitting GOP Committee Chairman forwarded a racist email to parties unknown several months ago, and that someone who hasn't served in the party committee in a decade sent out racist email, again, to parties unknown.

First, clearly the recipients of Mr. Bartholemew's email were intended to be close, personal friends and not for public distribution. This doesn't make the email in any way acceptable, but it's ludicrous to suggest that it was used as a political motivator.

Second, the recipients of Ms. Beauchamp's email, hidden in a BCC blast, are potentially more widespread, but coming from someone who doesn't serve any formal role in the City Committee, doesn't elevate this beyond one of the millions of random political emails sent and received every day.

Finally, you couldn't help yourself by building onto these two unrelated events by saying they include "racist jokes, songs, and other material to boost the sense of community and esprit de corps among Virginia Beach Republicans". What other materials? There's one joke and one video. There are no other emails we know of. One was sent to only a handful of people, the other from a person not in any position of power. There's absolutely zero evidence of any "community" building or these being used as "core organizing principle".

To say so is an outright lie and slanderous, and should be removed immediately.

As for Mr. Schoeneman, it is tremendously unfortunate that you didn't seem to read a single word he wrote on this topic, and even more unfortunate that he has been banned from making comments on this site, admittedly for no good reason. To choose to call him out by name and completely mischaracterize his statements in a forum where he cannot respond---rather than making a comment on Bearing Drift---speaks of a very immature attitude.

I have no idea how you missed any of the following lines from Brian's post:

I was appalled yesterday when I saw the email

was pleased when he stepped down last night

That kind of racism has no place in the Republican party, and I've been vocal about it

contains a video that's a pretty nasty attack on the President, and one that I think is uncalled for and completely inappropriate.

racism is racism and it should be stamped out as soon as it happens

racism is an evil that transcends party

Racism is wrong regardless of when or where it happens

Racism is wrong.

No where in Brian's post did he even come remotely close to "defending" the actions of anyone involved in this sordid mess. I cannot fathom how you possibly could have reached that conclusion, unless as I mentioned before you didn't read a single word of his post.

Furthermore, Brian is not decrying the correct outrage towards these two events. In fact, Brian has joined that outrage. The issue is not whether the Democrats should speak out against racism when it occurs; indeed, as Brian and I agree, everyone should speak out about it when it occurs. And its the final part of that sentence that's important: when it occurs.

Bartholemew's email was sent in March; Beauchamp's in July. Why are we just now hearing about it, and in language meant to attempt to tie these two individuals to an unrelated candidate in a competitive election?  If the person that sent these to Lowell has had them since March and July, why was that not the best time to bring them to light? If Lowell has had them for that long, why wait until two weeks before the Election to post about it?

These are very reasonable questions, that were also raised by Ben Tribbet (not exactly a defender of racism himself). And they deserve an answer. Even if you don't think they deserve an answer, they do NOT deserve having Brian's reasonable comments distorted so you can make up a lie about a political party you happen to disagree with.

This is an unfactual and shameful post for many reasons, and I respectfully request that the moderators of this blog edit or remove it. Sadly, I don't expect anything except a snarky reply.  

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 16:59:00 PM UTC

"If Lowell has had them for that long" (0.00 / 0)

That's an outright lie, I've said multiple times that I received the emails Monday and Tuesday.  We also know who the source of the emails was, with near certainty - the Kenny Golden camp. And we know that the emails were forwarded to my Democratic source on Monday and Tuesday. They then forwarded them to me, and I posted. If you continue to come here to repeat lies and to slander me, your comments will be appropriately (troll) rated.

Now, back to the topic at hand - endemic racism in the Virginia Beach Republican Party.  We now have two - count'em - heads of the VBRC caught forwarding virulently racist emails. So far, to my knowledge, there's been dead silence from Bob McDonnell, Bill Bolling, and Ken Cuccinelli (let alone "Felix Macacawitz"), not to mention most Republican bloggers (except to try and use red herrings to distract from the real issue).  Fortunately, we're not falling for the Big Lie tactics, we're staying 100% focused on the issue of racism - and tolerance, excuses, etc. for racism - in the Republican Party.  

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:09:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Again, we can't help it if Republicans like (0.00 / 0)

forwarding racist emails around for jollies, and if Rigell-hating Golden supporters like sending them to Democrats to post on progressive blogs. You guys really need to get your act together, what a mess!

Follow me on Twitter.

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:35:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

response (0.00 / 0)

I said "if" you had them. I now know you did not. You posted them nearly as soon as you got them. However, you clearly had zero issue with the fact that these reached your inbox two weeks before an election. If you're comfortable with that, so be it.

I can count as well as you have. We have one then-current Chairman, and one person who hasn't been in a leadership position in a decade. Two isolated events isn't "endemic" of anything; its not even close. The leading politician in Virginia Beach--Scott Rigell--has fully and immediately denounced both of them.

I'm also sick and tired of trying to demonize elected officials who clearly have better things to do than worry about an email sent seven months ago. There's no reason to think Governor McDonnell condones racism. If elected officials spent their time denouncing every inappropriate thing that someone who shares their party label did, no one would ever have time for anything else.

As for other Republican bloggers, you have a fair point. Denunciation of this should come from all sides. Which is why its incredibly maddening that the one called out by name in this post, Brian Schoeneman, is one of the ones who has strongly come out against this (and as I mentioned, cannot post here to defend himself for some reason).

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:39:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Condoning (0.00 / 0)

"There's no reason to think Governor McDonnell condones racism."

I can think of a couple reasons:

- "Confederate History Month" (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/06/AR2010040604416.html)

- Elementary school textbooks that repeat Civil War revisionist lies. (http://loudounprogress.us/diary/251/dont-teach-lies-in-history-class)

Just to name two.

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by: Paradox13VA @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:44:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I don't really care when they reached my inbox (3.50 / 2)

although it would have been "cleaner" after the election, in the sense that we could have put the focus 100% where it belongs - on the racism endemic in the Virginia Beach (and maybe Virginia) Republican Party.  As far as Gov. "Confederate History Month" is concerned, the jury's out on him; so far, he's been very quiet about his Republican pals' antics in Virginia Beach.  As far as the Republican bloggers are concerned, if they'd just condemn the racism and not try to distract by slandering Democratic bloggers like myself, we actually might find something to agree on and leave it at that. Instead, they waste everyone's time and energy for no good reason. The only question is, why do they do this?  Can they simply not help themselves, or is lying and smearing the only thing they know?

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:47:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Turning On The Light (0.00 / 0)

Turning the light on racism is always a good thing, no matter the timing. If you think that not showing endemic racism within a group that publicly states they are not racist is not good you are the one with a problem. The racist e-mails have popped up in other states such as Colorado so it is not an isolated racist "accidentally" hitting the send button because of stupidity. I believe it was an act done on purpose.

It is appropriate to point out racists. It is not a waste of time. This is 2010 not 1859. There is no logical or understandable reason that racism is still rampant within our United States.  Letting people who profess to be pure of racism hide, and others be party to them hiding the racism, is despicable.

Dissemblers need not apply anymore. The fact that these e-mails exist and are being spread is enough to place a wide blanket of suspicion over those who are associated with those sending the garbage. Stating that it is minor and old is wrong. These are still as fresh as "maccaca" and quite usable for the political pressure it puts on those wanting to be the leaders of our country, at any level.

Mere parsimony is not economy. Expense, and great expense, may be an essential part in true economy.
Edmund Burke

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by: blue bronc @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:01:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Who is saying its not appropriate to point out racists? (0.00 / 1)

Who is saying its a waste of time? No one said it was minor, and no one said it was unimportant because it was old. I don't get your points.

As for the future leaders of the country, there's no connection at all between these emails and Scott Rigell, regardless of Kenny Golden's attempts to cause controversy for his political opponent.  

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:13:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Campaigns (0.00 / 0)

Hold things in reserve all of the time.  Anyone who is at more than the most basic level knows that, and lives with it.  So Golden did it here (just as Nye or Rigell might have done.)  Naturally, Republicans need to fight back/distract in the strongest possible way they can.  (I respect that, actually.  I hate parties that don't fight...)  But c'mon, no one's really having an attack of the vapors here.  (Or if you are, that's almost sweet.)

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by: GretchenLaskas @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:38:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Fine. (0.00 / 0)

If you're saying that there's no problem with what Golden's people did, then that's one valid opinion to take away from all of this. It's not unreasonable to ask about it, and its not a distraction to question the virtue of using racism as a political weapon.

But let's at least have the discussion, instead of Lowell and Grant one-upping each other about how evil every Republican must be and others on this site labeling Schoeneman, of all people, as defending racism.

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:49:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

(laughing) (0.00 / 0)

Yes, saying that people are using "racism as a political weapon" or that people are being "used" isn't a form of one-upping???  Of course it is!  And you know what, that's not the end of the world as we know it.  Anyone who blogs knows that's how you play the game!

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by: GretchenLaskas @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:17:43 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No snark needed, just video (0.00 / 0)

Ronald Reagan had fictional black welfare queens, today's GOP has fictional Hispanic welfare illegals. I don't know, though ... some of them look Asian.

Read more at TheGreenMiles.com and follow me on Twitter

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by: TheGreenMiles @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:16:24 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Nice Cherry Picking (0.00 / 0)

Typical of your arguments. If not cherry picking then you fail to comprehend prejudice and that can't be fixed here.

Just this morning on Macrini's show on WNIS, Kenny Golden pointed out that Beauchamp continued to be an important contributor to VBRP efforts long after she was replaced as chair. So it isn't from someone who was associated with the committee a decade ago.

Replaced as chair because she was seen as too moderate, it is said, on the initiative of the Senator Ken Stolle clique which McDonnell had been a part.

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by: Dan Sullivan @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:36:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Where have I cherry-picked? (0.00 / 0)

More importantly, what is there to cherry-pick? There were two incidents. I discussed both of them completely.  

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:41:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Zero Incidents (0.00 / 0)

The issue is that there should have been ZERO incidents.

Everything else is just spin.

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by: Paradox13VA @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:45:51 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No one is arguing with this. (0.00 / 0)

There is no one on the other side of your argument. We all agree racism is bad and that these two emails should not have been sent.

That's not what the discussion is about.

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:08:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

False (4.00 / 2)

What about one of the leaders of the Tea Party Express writing racist blog posts? Or GOP presidential candidate Newt Gingrich dabbling in birtherism to appeal to those who think President Obama isn't a real American because he's brown?

You can't separate pandering to racism from the GOP's electoral strategy for the last 40 years. They're inseparable.  

Read more at TheGreenMiles.com and follow me on Twitter

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by: TheGreenMiles @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:17:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"using racism as a political weapon." (0.00 / 0)

That's what Brian Schoeneman accused Lowell--and by extension, the rest of us--of doing.

This post addressed Mr. Schoeneman's allegation that we were "using racism as a political weapon."

That's what THIS discussion is about.

The Richmonder

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by: The Richmonder @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:26:05 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

No, not Lowell (0.00 / 0)

He accused that of whoever has been in possession of these emails since they were sent in March and July, and decided to do nothing with them until two weeks before the Election to cause headaches for Rigell.

We now know it wasn't Lowell, it was likely Golden's people. Whoever it was, they made a decision to NOT "shine a light" on racism when they found out about it, and instead made a political calculation on when it should be released. That is using racism as a political weapon.

You still owe Brian an apology.

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:35:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The issue (0.00 / 0)

Again, the issue isn't how the emails were used, it's that they were sent. I know we like to argue meta here in blogs, but treating each other with respect is a way more important thing than critiquing release timing.

Yes, this discussion on this post has been about timing and use, but really, that's so far past the point it's frustrating.

The fact that the VA Beach Republican committee would twice (even 10 years apart) elect leaders who had it in themselves to feel it was okay to propound racism in email form is the issue. Electing someone like that as leader, and having them send hate emails while serving as leader is the essence of condoning racism in the 21st century.

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by: Paradox13VA @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:45:58 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Clarification (3.00 / 1)

I think everyone agrees that the presence and the impact of racism is a more important topic than the timing of these emails' release. However, that happens to be the specific topic of Brian's blog post, and this blog post responding to it. So yes, it is the issue here.

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:51:39 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

So racists should only be outed when it is convenient for the GOP? (4.00 / 1)

Hypothetically speaking, what if Lowell did have these e-mails for several months; are you suggesting we owe some kind of duty to racists to out them in a timely fashion?  

Or can we use our own judgement about when outing them is likely to cause the most damage to the racist?

Maybe you should write the rules down for all of us.

The Richmonder

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by: The Richmonder @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:05:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It goes to what your priorities are. (0.00 / 0)

If you think racism is evil and should be stamped out whenever it occurs, it should be brought to light immediately, irrespective of any political consequences. That means that these emails should have come out in March and July, when they were sent. If a racist email was sent tomorrow, I would have no problem if it were brought to light and denounced tomorrow.

Yes, I do think there is a duty to out them in a timely fashion. Evidently Lowell agrees, as he posted them as soon as he got them.

As for "causing damage to the racist", the timing was designed to cause damage to Scott Rigell, who is not a racist and has no connection to either of the emails sent. And in the meantime, Bartholemew continued to serve as VBCR Chairman many, many months after he sent his email. You tell me if that is the best outcome here.  

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:24:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Eh, it's politics (0.00 / 0)

And politics -- the hardball games of it-- is usually not about best outcomes. It's usually about winning and sometimes people win by doing things that aren't in anyone's best interests other than the win.  Every party almost always takes the short term over the long term.  You want clean hands and a soul that never troubles you at three o'clock in the morning?  You probably aren't going to enjoy politics.

What I'm laughing at is everyone getting all holier than thou, especially on blogs!  I have a pretty basic perspective, and you can see it in my posts for years now -- the moment a candidate starts yelling "Not fair" it makes you and your campaign look weak.  I don't care if it's a Democrat or a Republican, and I don't really care whether it is actually not fair or not.  This isn't a game with rules, and I'm always amused when I watch one side (either side) try to pretend it is.  Why?  Because it always happens when they are caught, but never seems to happen when they are doing it.

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by: GretchenLaskas @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:34:01 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

To be fair, (0.00 / 0)

This was carried on by Brian Schoeneman's posts on Bearing Drift (and, I suppose, myself), and both of us are proud residents of Fairfax County in the 11th District, and are not connected to the Scott Rigell campaign in the 2nd District.

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:41:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Fighting 11th!!! (0.00 / 0)

I'm also a proud resident of Fairfax County's 11th, and not connected with Glenn Nye's candidacy.

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by: GretchenLaskas @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:48:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not only a duty (0.00 / 0)

I'd argue that it would have been irresponsible, even unethical, of me to hold the emails and not publish them. Instead, I posted on them minutes after receiving them. I'd hope that Republican bloggers would do the same if they receive similar emails, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Follow me on Twitter.

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:46:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

ethics (0.00 / 0)

That's one of the reasons why I spend so much time here, and actually try to contribute in some small way.  There are a lot of blogs out there, and you have to have some way of distinguishing where and when you spend your time.  Your sense of responsibility and ethics is one of the reasons why I stick around.

That said, I think that Brian is an ethical and responsible blogger as well.

But let's face it -- you can send out a message, but you can't always control how it is received.  It's asking a lot from Republicans to not go for the jugular when they are hit, especially in a situation like this one, where it's really, really ugly, and stings in a way that isn't only immediate, but of a long-standing issue.  On the other hand, I don't get too bent out of shape when Republicans start screaming and crying that they're misunderstood.  Boo hoo.

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by: GretchenLaskas @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 20:10:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's a lie (0.00 / 0)

Look at the graphic on Brian's post: it's a direct attack on Blue Virginia.

The Richmonder

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by: The Richmonder @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 22:13:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Compare and Contrast (0.00 / 0)

"Second, the recipients of Ms. Beauchamp's email, hidden in a BCC blast, are potentially more widespread, but coming from someone who doesn't serve any formal role in the City Committee, doesn't elevate this beyond one of the millions of random political emails sent and received every day." - VA Blogger

"As a matter of fact, the point that they made was that Karen Beauchamp hasn't been in a leadership role in the party since 2001. Well I got news for you, Karen Beauchamp was one of the hardest workers we had in the Republican Party, and she was the one who organized the headquarters every single day. And both she and Dave Bartholomew were responsible for Bob McDonnell's success in 2009. It certainly wasn't Kenny Golden; I'll tell you that." - Kenny Golden to Tony Macrini on WNIS

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by: Dan Sullivan @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 17:51:02 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"using racism as a political weapon." (0.00 / 0)

That's what Brian Schoeneman accused Lowell--and by extension, the rest of us--of doing.

This post addressed Mr. Schoeneman's allegation that we were "using racism as a political weapon."

That's what THIS discussion is about.

The Richmonder

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by: The Richmonder @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 18:27:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

In defense of Mr. Schoeneman (0.00 / 0)

I think Mr. Schoeneman's post at Bearing Drift referenced here is a poor argument. Indeed, even asking the question of what is worse, racism or using racism as a political weapon -- is on its face laughable, and clearly represents an attempt -- one that, in any fair reading, utterly fails -- to mitigate the ugliness of the racism and the racist emails by indicting the alleged purpose for which it was exposed, i.e., political gain.

I don't know Mr. Schoeneman or his history with Blue Virginia. I did have a brief, relatively civil discussion with him about his post last night at Bearing Drift, during which I think he stepped back from some of his more strident and unsupportable allegations about what Lowell knew and when he knew it, even though he did not retreat from his argument.

As more facts have come to light today, his arguemnt has only grown weaker. Lowell only came into possession of the emails recently, so he did not sit on them for political gain. According to Vivian Paige, the leaker's motives may have been political (it could have been Kenny golden, or someone setting up Golden), but they may have also been personal.

In any event, in his post it is worth noting that Mr. Schoeneman went to great pains several times to characterize the emails as indefensible, and he notes that he is involved with outreach efforts to minorities on behalf of the Republican Party. He has denied personally trafficking in this kind of material. He seems sincere in his outrage and disapproval. I take him at his word.

Given that, I think it is a stretch to transform what is, in reality, no more than a poorly reasoned argument by Mr. Schoeneman into a defense of racism that is, through some rhetorical principle of equivalence, a defense of racism itself.

That all said, I also think Lowell has a legitimate grievance about the response to story over at Bearing Drift, where he has been personally, unfairly and maliciously attacked. The facts simply do not justify the attacks upon him. I won't repeat the attacks here -- Lord knows Lowell doesn't need to read that crap on his own blog -- but the fact that the central response of what purports to be the most influential Conservative and Republican blog in the Commonwealth to evidence of racism in its own ranks is to personally and unfairly attack Lowell speaks volumes.

Without personalizing it toward anyone, what it really says is that the GOP might have a serious problem with which is not yet ready to deal in an honest and forthright manner. They have decided it is better to attack the messenger (Lowell) for completely fictitious wrongdoing, or argue that the racist emails are private and should remain undisclosed, or suggest that it might be just a few bad apples, than ask the more serious and painful questions of whether there are racist aspects to the movement of which they are a part.

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by: aznew @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:41:36 PM UTC

Good comment. (0.00 / 0)

n/t

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by: VA Blogger @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:43:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's what they always do (0.00 / 0)

Attack the messenger, cuz other than that they ain't got nothin'. Except racism, division, anger, homophobia, xenophobia, and greed (f*** you I've got mine) of course. What a party! LOL

Follow me on Twitter.

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:44:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Agreed. That is why (0.00 / 0)

the tide of history is against them. I am confident over the long haul that Progressives values will win out -- and are winning out.

Still, they will win elections here and there, meaning the only question is how many people are going to be hurt by their cynical, unworkable and sometime immoral policies, as the long arc of history takes it natural course.

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by: aznew @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:58:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Let's See (0.00 / 0)

Using the knowledge and evidence that one or more people, in particular Republicans, Republicans working to put one or more Republicans, in to elected office where they can create or repeal laws that affect all of us, is blatantly racist is somehow using that racism as a political weapon?

To use a phrase destroyed by a woman idiot, "you betcha!"

To pretend that if a Republican would not use it as such is absolutely ludicrous.  But, if a Democrat has the evidence and uses it to political advantage that is not nice or unfair, is silly.

Politics is contact sport. It is not played with many rules.  One rule is to damage your opponents and their support structure. The other rule is to make yourself look like a world saver. A great way to get rid of your opponents is to pop out some terrible and damaging information, ever better is if it is true and you can show it on TV.  A way to make yourself look great is to be seen getting rid of a scourge and the bad mole people.  

These e-mails are a wonderful political gift, at least for the Dems, and those who fight racism.  

Mere parsimony is not economy. Expense, and great expense, may be an essential part in true economy.
Edmund Burke

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by: blue bronc @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 19:43:07 PM UTC

Speaking of racism (0.00 / 0)

NAACP backs report that ties racist groups to tea party

Follow me on Twitter.

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by: lowkell @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 20:45:26 PM UTC

Another October Surprise (0.00 / 0)

NOT

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by: Dan Sullivan @ Wed Oct 20, 2010 at 20:52:37 PM UTC

[ Parent ]